Reader comments
Group's report details aftermath of Prop. 8
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LDS | 8:50 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
By the fruits of their labors, we can know who the real hate mongers are.
Really? | 8:55 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Let's think about this. Yes, the LDS church funded the campaign, but more
than half of California how to vote for it in order to it to pass.
I promise you that LDS people don't account for half of California. Catholics were another population in favor of Prop 8. Why don't these people attack the Catholics. LDS people are an easy target because they don't fight back.
Think about it, who in their right mind would tick off the large southern California Catholic population. I promise you it would not turn out pretty.
The only reason why they aren't banging on the Pope's door is because he's out of reach.
I promise you that LDS people don't account for half of California. Catholics were another population in favor of Prop 8. Why don't these people attack the Catholics. LDS people are an easy target because they don't fight back.
Think about it, who in their right mind would tick off the large southern California Catholic population. I promise you it would not turn out pretty.
The only reason why they aren't banging on the Pope's door is because he's out of reach.
Safely anonymous | 8:56 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Won't it be nice when we have laws that force everyone doing or saying
anything in a political campaign to report it to the government. Then radical
groups can just request that information from the government and carry out such
attacks.
This makes me question the motivation behind such laws.
This makes me question the motivation behind such laws.
Comments continue below
Irony | 8:58 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
"this is what the gay community has been going through for decades".
It sounds like he is angry about it and thinks it is wrong, yet he turns around
and does the exact same thing. If something is wrong it is wrong. This is no
different than the bullying tactics of Rush Limbaugh. I put them all in the same
camp and I'm sure he wouldn't liked being labeled that way, but
thuggery is thuggery. This is a tactic of pure intimidation no different than
what has gone on for ages, but now that they have the power they are showing
true colors.
Anonymous | 9:01 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
After working to pass similar legislation in Nebraska in 2000 we decided to move
to Utah to escape harassment.
Really? | 9:01 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Come on guys. We can stand up for what we believe. If it turns over the other
way, then that is how it goes. I will still stand up for my beliefs, but I will
not march up to your house, spit on you, shove posters in your face, thrash your
car, make it my personal vendetta send hate mail, or whatever.
You know the world is upside down when all the heterosexuals want to just live together, and all the homosexuals want to get married. Funny eh?
You know the world is upside down when all the heterosexuals want to just live together, and all the homosexuals want to get married. Funny eh?
Pathetic, again | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Playing the "poor us, we're being persecuted" card again?
Pathetic.
This issue actually is important - and companies making political donations for the sole purpose of taking away rights from other citizens that they themselves enjoy is a "first" in America, and deserves vigorous public condemnation.
Pathetic.
This issue actually is important - and companies making political donations for the sole purpose of taking away rights from other citizens that they themselves enjoy is a "first" in America, and deserves vigorous public condemnation.
Surprised? | 9:11 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
You shouldn't be. This was foretold to happen.
Wrong is right and right is wrong.
Persecuted for doing good...
Evil behavior is organized and they want to add legal legitimacy to their deviant acts. The fact they are making progress speaks of the corruption within government entities.
I expect it to get worse before it ever gets better.
I guess it is comforting to know how this all turns out in the end but in the interim the hate and bigotry against the church and its members will only intensify.
Wrong is right and right is wrong.
Persecuted for doing good...
Evil behavior is organized and they want to add legal legitimacy to their deviant acts. The fact they are making progress speaks of the corruption within government entities.
I expect it to get worse before it ever gets better.
I guess it is comforting to know how this all turns out in the end but in the interim the hate and bigotry against the church and its members will only intensify.
Gay's are losing | 9:14 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Messner wrote Prop. 8 supporters "have been subjected to harassment,
intimidation, vandalism, racial scapegoating, blacklisting, loss of employment,
economic hardships, angry protests, violence, at least one death threat and
gross expressions of anti-religious bigotry."
WOW...Sounds like a HATE CRIME! Arrest these terrorists....
WOW...Sounds like a HATE CRIME! Arrest these terrorists....
Inflated "Findings" | 9:14 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Under the breathless heading of "Employees and Business Owners
Targeted" I was expecting a vast litany of injustices. Instead, the
Heritage Foundation "study" could only find two people who voluntarily
resigned from their jobs (both in the performing arts), and one woman who took a
temporary leave of absence (from a restaurant with a huge gay clientele). No
offense, but it's not exactly the Kristallnacht of terror the author would
have us believe.
Anonymous | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Why did the church try to cover up their financial contributions to the passage
of Prop 8. They originally said, they contributed $2,ooo. Then it came out to
be more like $190,ooo. When it was all said and done it seems like Mormons put
in between 8 and 20 million to pass this legislation. Be transparent people.
Tell the truth or it will be hard to believe you on other issues.
s | 9:20 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Hey, John Pack Lambert...we're embarrassed that you're embarrassed.
If you don't like it, then quit. But, stop whining. Methinks you protest
too much.
Moved to Maryland | 9:20 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on.
Truth | 9:22 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
"Whether the minority of one, the truth is still the truth" - Mahatma
Ghandi.
You need to grow a backbone "John Pack Lambert".
You need to grow a backbone "John Pack Lambert".
Anonymous | 9:27 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
RE: John Pack Lambert: Please remember that you should never be ashamed to be a
Mormon. We are led by prophets. Don't ever forget what that means. Let the
world with its secular perception say what it will about us or our leaders. We
know the truth.
This is how it feels | 9:31 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
None of this is okay but it has been happening to the gay community for a long
time. It will likely get worse as some individuals in any angry group take
things too far.
Interesting.... | 9:31 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
If you look at this from both sides equally, they both have the same complaint.
Gay's have had to deal with prosacution, harrasment, vandilsim etc for
their entire lives. Now the writer is complaining that supporters of Prop 8 are
receiving the same treatment, which they feel is wrong.
Here's my take. Learning how the other person feels helps you to understand EMPATHY. If you can learn and comprihend empathy, then...and only then will you start to understand the true meaning of what Christ stood for.
So both sides should take a lesson here. Do unto others as you would have done unto you.
If you judge others lifestyle to be wrong, then likely your lifestyle is wrong also...with just a different issue blocking your way....
Here's my take. Learning how the other person feels helps you to understand EMPATHY. If you can learn and comprihend empathy, then...and only then will you start to understand the true meaning of what Christ stood for.
So both sides should take a lesson here. Do unto others as you would have done unto you.
If you judge others lifestyle to be wrong, then likely your lifestyle is wrong also...with just a different issue blocking your way....
Daniel | 9:32 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
I'm not embarrassed. Its refreshing to see an organization put words into
action. Defend the faith. Defend the family.
Government stay out of marriage | 9:33 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
I wish marriage would stay out of the marriage business. Marriage is a cultural
thing. Various cultural institutions should conduct marriages according to their
charters or beliefs. People could join an institution that had their vision of
marriage. Government should forget marriage and focus on civil rights, equal pay
for equal work, and things like that.
Anonymous | 9:34 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Homosexuality consistently and statistically breaks families apart. The Mormons
faith is based around the family. Its pretty clear why they are against gay
marriages and I support them.
Though I am not a Mormon, I support anything that protects families.
Though I am not a Mormon, I support anything that protects families.
Freind | 9:36 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Let's all get along?
Gail F. Bartholomew | 9:36 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
As a life time Mormon I really wonder why people did not anticipate this kind of
response to Mormon's work for prop 8. You can believe you are doing
something for the right reason, but come on what would we do if someone took our
right to marry away. I think if someone took Mormon's right to marry we
would not be talking about protests and harassment someone would be working hard
to keep Mormons form taking up arms. Can we not see how lucky we are. When you
work destroy someones family why are we shocked that it makes people angry?
I used to be proud | 9:40 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
To say I grew up in Utah. Now I tell people I was born in LA and "spent
some time in Utah". It requires much less 'splainin'.
re:inflated findings | 9:54 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
I live in the Bay area. One big christian church who supported the efforts was
vandalized. The member's homes were targeted by vandals. Cars were egged,
painted, keyed, etc. It got very little play in the media here (big surprise),
but I saw it with my own eyes. That church had the courage to speak up and its
members were targeted. How is this any different than the gay/lesbian's
feelings that they have been targeted? Wrong is wrong.
Matthew | 9:54 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
I loved this quote "This is what the gay community has been going through
for decades,"
This seems to be an attempt to justify such behavior. Am I to conclude that all the past deeds that I have always considered injustices (insults, intimidation, assaults) were actually justifiable and there has never been any unjustifiable persecution of gays? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Two wrongs never make a right.
That is just very twisted thinking.
You may disagree with me about certain behaviors being unhealthy/harmful for both society and individuals. But you won't persuade me that you are motivated by a desire for fundamental equality by advocating such a double standard. It reveals an underlying selfishness.
This seems to be an attempt to justify such behavior. Am I to conclude that all the past deeds that I have always considered injustices (insults, intimidation, assaults) were actually justifiable and there has never been any unjustifiable persecution of gays? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Two wrongs never make a right.
That is just very twisted thinking.
You may disagree with me about certain behaviors being unhealthy/harmful for both society and individuals. But you won't persuade me that you are motivated by a desire for fundamental equality by advocating such a double standard. It reveals an underlying selfishness.
Anonymous | 9:55 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Lets vote away the rights of Mormons to marry and see how "nice" they
are about it....
socal Gal | 9:57 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
It's hard enough to be a Mormon in California. I wish the Church
wouldn't go out of its way to make it harder for us.
Yes, | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
I'm proud to be a Mormon right now!
Gays for Gary | 10:04 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
The concerted effort to demonize the Mormon church might be good politics
outside Utah but, for those of us who live here, it simply means at least 6
years of Governor Gary Herbert. It is probably bad politics outside Utah as
well. If you spend more time criticizing your opponent than talking about what
you want you are losing the debate. People don't like whiners and when
your whole argument is "the other side is bad" you turn off swing
voters-- who largely vote based on personalities.
Safely anonymous | 8:56 a.m. Nov | 10:10 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Such laws are passed to intimidate people and limit their willingness to
disagree by making it public. Interesting dichotomy isn't it?
TO: Anonymous | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 3 | 10:16 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
The Church didn't cover anything up. Campaign reporting laws require
reporting on certain dates.
On the date they reported $2,000 that is what had been spent. On the next reporting date, in kind contributions had been made with a a higher value, and that was reported. By the date of the final report, there had been additional in kind contributions that were also reported.
Yes, the total value of those contributions rose with each succeeding reporting date since the contributions were continuing.
There was no cover-up. Everything was reported as the reports were due to the election commission.
On the date they reported $2,000 that is what had been spent. On the next reporting date, in kind contributions had been made with a a higher value, and that was reported. By the date of the final report, there had been additional in kind contributions that were also reported.
Yes, the total value of those contributions rose with each succeeding reporting date since the contributions were continuing.
There was no cover-up. Everything was reported as the reports were due to the election commission.
Backwards | 10:18 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Seriously? And the gay community thinks they are being targeted and mistreated?
Give me a break!!
Abe Lincoln | 10:27 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
to: Anonymous | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
the members donated the 8-20 million you reffering to, not the church. since when has it become a crime to donate to a cause you beleive in? are we creating a religious requirement for donations and voting? maybe we should start harrasing the gays who went agaisnt this measure and donated nearly the same amount. and lets not forget all the maney they spent on both of the court cases.
to: Pathetic, again | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
no rights are being denied. any man can marry any woman regardless if one or both are gay. what that Prop 8 did was nothing more than DEFINE the right. gays can marry. no one asks if you are gay when you get married. if the right to bear arms was in question would you be opposed if an initiative were put on the ballot that excludes rocket launchers? if such a law was passed, no rights would be denied, the right would merely be defined. that is what happend in california. no rights were DENIED, the right of marriage was DEFINED, and the definition is man and woman.
the members donated the 8-20 million you reffering to, not the church. since when has it become a crime to donate to a cause you beleive in? are we creating a religious requirement for donations and voting? maybe we should start harrasing the gays who went agaisnt this measure and donated nearly the same amount. and lets not forget all the maney they spent on both of the court cases.
to: Pathetic, again | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
no rights are being denied. any man can marry any woman regardless if one or both are gay. what that Prop 8 did was nothing more than DEFINE the right. gays can marry. no one asks if you are gay when you get married. if the right to bear arms was in question would you be opposed if an initiative were put on the ballot that excludes rocket launchers? if such a law was passed, no rights would be denied, the right would merely be defined. that is what happend in california. no rights were DENIED, the right of marriage was DEFINED, and the definition is man and woman.
I Pledge | 10:35 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
to keep normal marriages safe
to flush after every use
to tolerate others but fight for whats right
to look at what made civilizations past fall
to not listen to the few loud mouths that want us to not only tolerate but $upport their twisted behavior
to fight twisting marriages and families till my dying breath
to flush after every use
to tolerate others but fight for whats right
to look at what made civilizations past fall
to not listen to the few loud mouths that want us to not only tolerate but $upport their twisted behavior
to fight twisting marriages and families till my dying breath
@Gail | 10:38 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
" Can we not see how lucky we are?"
It's not a matter of luck. If God wanted two men or two women to reproduce as part of his plan for an eternal family, he would have created that. His creation was one man and one woman from the beginning to procreate and bring spirits into this world. Why as a lifetime Mormon would you question Gods plan? You either believe it, or you don't. Who's side are you on?
It's not a matter of luck. If God wanted two men or two women to reproduce as part of his plan for an eternal family, he would have created that. His creation was one man and one woman from the beginning to procreate and bring spirits into this world. Why as a lifetime Mormon would you question Gods plan? You either believe it, or you don't. Who's side are you on?
Huh? | 10:51 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Boycotts are "thuggish liberalism"? I'm sorry that you
don't like people calling you out for being bigots. But if you are going to
take an unpopular stance on a controversial issue, some people are not going to
be very happy with you. Overwhelmingly, gay rights supporters (aka non-bigots)
do not advocate violence or intimidation. But there is nothing wrong with
peaceful protests and boycotts.
BobP | 10:51 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
The gays have no right to marry. It may well be that they are courting a
serious backlash by being so pushy.
ediddy | 10:52 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Dear Ms. Bartholomew,
You may be a life lomg Mormon, or you may not, but I suspect you are a troll hiding behind the facade of "mormomism" to make you contribution wore papalable. Fact is, the ligitimizing or gay marriage and the well organized groups fostering it, will indeed lead to the abolishment of traditional marriage. This is just the foundation being laid for future legal bullying. Come ut of the closet girl or at least stand behind you faith.
You may be a life lomg Mormon, or you may not, but I suspect you are a troll hiding behind the facade of "mormomism" to make you contribution wore papalable. Fact is, the ligitimizing or gay marriage and the well organized groups fostering it, will indeed lead to the abolishment of traditional marriage. This is just the foundation being laid for future legal bullying. Come ut of the closet girl or at least stand behind you faith.
bergy | 10:52 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Gail F. Bartholomew: "I think if someone took Mormon's right to marry
we would not be talking about protests and harassment someone would be working
hard to keep Mormons form taking up arms."
Hmmm..... Read your history. I think the Mormons were burned out, raped & murdered for sport and driven from Ohio, Illinois, & Missouri for their definition of marriage. In fact, by executive order, it was legal to kill Mormons in Missouri until sometime in the 1970s. I don't recall the Mormons taking up arms, heck the Mormons hardly faught back much at all. They just moved on. Usually after losing everything....
Hmmm..... Read your history. I think the Mormons were burned out, raped & murdered for sport and driven from Ohio, Illinois, & Missouri for their definition of marriage. In fact, by executive order, it was legal to kill Mormons in Missouri until sometime in the 1970s. I don't recall the Mormons taking up arms, heck the Mormons hardly faught back much at all. They just moved on. Usually after losing everything....
I'll keep standing up against it | 10:53 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
I'm not hating anybody, I don't deny any rights. I just believe
marriage, by definition, is between man and woman.
We're getting closer to ending this. I hope I'm personally ready for when it happens. There is no going back now. I LOVE BEING a MORMON! I know that 2,000 righteous warriors conquered, and so shall those who stay true to their covenants. My faith has ALWAYS won out. It's never, EVER been easy - Just worth the fight.
We're getting closer to ending this. I hope I'm personally ready for when it happens. There is no going back now. I LOVE BEING a MORMON! I know that 2,000 righteous warriors conquered, and so shall those who stay true to their covenants. My faith has ALWAYS won out. It's never, EVER been easy - Just worth the fight.
Indiana Ben | 10:53 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Anon. They already took away Mormons marriage rights. My great grandparents
were not allowed to have the marriage they wanted because a lot of U.S. citizens
and their government would not permit it.
Josh | 10:55 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
It's nice to so many on here who are proud to be Mormon.
I for one am proud that I am NO LONGER a Mormon. It confuses me that a group can claim that they follow the teachings of Christ--and yet act so UN-Christlike.
I for one am proud that I am NO LONGER a Mormon. It confuses me that a group can claim that they follow the teachings of Christ--and yet act so UN-Christlike.
Dee J | 10:57 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Romans 1:16-17.
Socal Guy | 10:59 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
It's hard to be a Mormon in California. I love the refiner's fire.
Observer | 11:00 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Fortunately, it's illegal to picket or harass individuals at their home, or
the gay-rights militants would have (openly) targeted individuals. As it is,
they can only do it secretly.
I am glad that I am a member of a church which is able to take a stand on important moral issues, regardless of the consequences.
I am glad that I am a member of a church which is able to take a stand on important moral issues, regardless of the consequences.
Pagan | 11:05 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
'...to fight twisting marriages and families till my dying breath'
Pledge, I hope you die soon.
Because the only marriage you should be concerned with is your own.
Pledge, I hope you die soon.
Because the only marriage you should be concerned with is your own.
Cosmo | 11:07 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Those of you that claim to be offended Mormons, as to the direction of the
church, can always quit! :-)
That choice remains within you.
That choice remains within you.
WhiteSock | 11:08 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
Homosexuals and their supports can protest all they want. It doesn't change
LDS doctrine, standards or principles. Gays have taken their issues and have
turned it into an attack on religion. If they can't get married, they
don't want marriage for anyone.
Re: Anonymous | 9:18 a.m. | 11:08 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
"Why did the church try to cover up their financial contributions to the
passage of Prop 8. They originally said, they contributed $2,ooo. Then it came
out to be more like $190,ooo."
Nobody was trying to cover anything up. The first deadline, where they reported the $2K, was one of many deadlines over the course of the fall. That first deadline wasn't for the grand total of all the contributions, but only some of them. They were only supposed to report contributions that happened BEFORE a certain date, and they that's what they did. It wasn't just the LDS church that reported a lower number under that deadline than under the final one. Every organization did, including the No on 8 side. The last deadline was for the grand total of contributions, and the LDS church met that deadline more than a month in advance.
There was no lie, there was no cover up. They listed the contributions that came before a certain date, and then they listed the final tally of all contributions, just like they were supposed to.
Do your research before making false claims, people!
Nobody was trying to cover anything up. The first deadline, where they reported the $2K, was one of many deadlines over the course of the fall. That first deadline wasn't for the grand total of all the contributions, but only some of them. They were only supposed to report contributions that happened BEFORE a certain date, and they that's what they did. It wasn't just the LDS church that reported a lower number under that deadline than under the final one. Every organization did, including the No on 8 side. The last deadline was for the grand total of contributions, and the LDS church met that deadline more than a month in advance.
There was no lie, there was no cover up. They listed the contributions that came before a certain date, and then they listed the final tally of all contributions, just like they were supposed to.
Do your research before making false claims, people!
Clouds gathering in the East | 11:11 a.m. Nov. 3, 2009
All of this is foretold. As a country, we've legalized gambling,
prostitution, and soon we'll have legalized marijuana and gay marriage.
We've thrown God out of all public discourse. The underpinnings of society
are eroding. Although painful, it's exciting to think we're getting
closer to Him returning.
Conformity will not be an issue when Moses parted the Red Sea. It won't be an issue when the sun doesn't come up for three days. Can't wait...
Conformity will not be an issue when Moses parted the Red Sea. It won't be an issue when the sun doesn't come up for three days. Can't wait...
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Protesters hold signs in front of the LDS Church temple in Los Angeles during a "No on Prop 8" march and rally last year.
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